Tuesday, June 6, 2006

Discerning the Priesthood and Yearning for Latin in your Novus Ordo?

I know that the Haloscan comments will eventually disappear and in a post below, we discussed Holy Orders that celebrate the Mass in Latin. While many of you may be aware of the FSSP, which celebrates the Tridentine, you may not be aware that there are orders which celebrate both the Latin Novus Ordo and the Tridentine. If the FSSP is authorized for both, please let me know in the comment section below. Maybe it is that they don't want to celebrate the Novus Ordo. I am not fluent in issues surrounding this order. Someone correct my ignorance of the FSSP and I'll edit this post so as not to mislead people.

However, I know of two orders which celebrate the Latin Novus Ordo, as well as the Tridentine. This first one is a local thing, and not universal for their order, which typically celebrates the Novus Ordo.

Order of Canons Regular of the Holy Cross. I often refer to them here in this blog as "Fathers of the Holy Cross", but sometimes I am concerned they will be confused with other Holy Cross priests which are from a different order. These priests have been helping out in Metro-Detroit for about the last 10 years. They spend much time at my parish - Assumption Grotto, but commute to nearby St. Josephat to celebrate the Tridentine, where there is an Indult. Anyone at Grotto will tell you that they are awesome confessors. They often spend time hearing confessions at unposted times. People respond to a priest in the confessional! They also give retreats for priests and and lay people. Maybe they are coming to a town near you. Fr. Titus Keininger, ORC, who spends time in Detroit, was recently in Utah, and his talk is covered in this article. But, if you are really wanting to get into Latin within your liturgy, this may not work for you. As I said, it is a local thing here in metro Detroit, because they are working at a parish which already celebrates the Novus Ordo in Latin.

The other is the Society of St. John Cantius in Chicago, which is a very young order, having just been established in 1998. It is not a big order, but I suspect it will be growing as word gets out. The parish website gives you some indication of the culture, complete with sacred polyphony and symphony, as well as Gregorian Chant.

I believe both of these orders are Augustinian-based. I know the first is semi-contemplative and I would not be surprised if the second was, as well. While the Fathers of the Holy Cross have a missionary charism which takes them all over the US and the world (formation house is currently in Brazil), I believe the SSJC are in the US. They may have another parish - seems to me in upper Michigan, but since the order is so small, I am assuming many are based in Chicago. If someone can email me with more information, I will gladly post it either back here, or in a followup post.

I'll leave you with the parish website of St. John Cantius, where you can listen to music and salivate over solemn pictures of the Mass there. They even have movie clips - something I hope to provide when I get AdOrientem.com up and running.


Further information can be emailed to me through the address in my profile. I pass it along in this blog.

Also, lets not forget that there are dioceses out there where more than one parish is celebrating a Latin Novus Ordo. If people email me this information where they've attended a diocesan Latin N.O., I'll put it up as a post. Some bishops are freindly to it, whereas others may not be favorable at all, even though Pope Benedict XVI and Pope John Paul II before him, have called for more Latin in the Mass. If you send me such parishes, let me know if diocesan priests run it, or if it is a Holy Order. Perhaps there are other Orders here in the US which celebrate the Latin N.O.

Yet another order:

I should say that most of us know that the Franciscan Missionaries of the Eternal Word
so often seen on EWTN obviously celebrate a partial Latin Novus Ordo. Put the right bishop there in Alabama, and you'll be seeing them celebrate it ad orientem live!

I know there must be other orders, so email them to me.

For Women

EDIT: Thought I would bring something forward for discerning young women from a couple weeks ago.

Young women heading to traditional convents: Post 1
Post 2


Moneybags said...

Very good post. I live near Chicago and am really thinking about Joining the Society of St. John Cantius. The church is one of the most beautiful ones I have ever seen.

Diane said...

Consider finding out if they have a discernment weekend coming. This will give you a real opportunity to give it a look.

Follow that which draws you and don't look back. Remember that the seminary is where the real discernment begins. Discernment doesn't end until you are ordained.

God Bless!

Moneybags said...

You're absolutely right that I have plenty of time to discern. I especially love how your blog reflects the Tradition of our faith. The Pre-Vatican II Mass has really been on my mind for the past several months. I am really thinking about joining an indult order.

I just got information in the mail today on the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest. It's a very traditional order, and I'm going to look over everything and go from there.

Thanks for the advice and prayers!

Anonymous said...

The SSJC has a retreat center in Lawton, Michigan which is on the lower west side of the state, I talked to them a while back and they may get a second church in Chicago in the near future.

As far as the Canons Regular of the Holy Cross go, they do celebrate the Tridentine mass at St. Josaphat www.detroitlatinmass.org on a semi-regular basis, but that is because the Archdiocese has asked them to help out. They do not recieve any training on the Tridentine mass in seminary, in that regard it is no different then any other order. There would be no reason to join this order if the objective were to celebrate the Tridentine mass.

The FSSP celebrates the Tridentine mass, there is some dispute as to whether an FSSP priest COULD celebrate a Novus Ordo mass, but it is not something they are trained to do.

Aristotle said...

Latin may be important, but it's not the most important thing in this debate. The question is whether or not the liturgy is authentically traditional. The Novus Ordo is not and therefore should die a quick death. Liturgy by committee is an experiment that has failed, and may history record this fact clearly so that it doesn't happen again. The language of the Mass is not as important as the content and whether that content first gives the greatest possible honor and glory to God and second effectively teaches the mystery of the faith. Latin is important as an unchanging language to bring that about and avoid heresy, as well as to unite the people in one liturgical language. However, what is far more important is the authentic tradition of the Roman liturgy, of which Latin is only a part. When people focus only on the Latin in the Mass, they easily become willing to acccept a "banal on the spot fabrication" (which then Cardinal Ratzinger called the Novus Ordo)as long as it is in Latin. How easy it is to lose sight of the forest because of the trees.

Diane said...

Aristotle - you said,

>>>>Latin may be important, but it's not the most important thing in this debate. The question is whether or not the liturgy is authentically traditional. The Novus Ordo is not and therefore should die a quick death. <<<<<<

I would like to invite you to stop in to Assumption Grotto parish in Detroit, where you can experience the real Mass of Vatican 2.

Since the 1960's many of us have been subjected to experimentation with the Liturgy, and some unfortunate souls have had to endure illicit and even invalid Masses. Most people, due to poor catechesis, had no idea how they were being misled, but now the internet allows us to explore and learn. Young people, as they discover the truth, aren't buying many arguments used by fashionable liturgical "experts" - most of whom are quite gray now.

But, things are slowly turning. God doesn't work in days - he works in decades and centuries.

I see more evidence all the time, that as young people yearn for truth, they are discovering worship in a much more correct mindset - where they grasp that God should be at the center of the Mass, not community. True community gains its strength and authentic unity when all have God as the sole focal point of worship.

I can't tell from your comment if you feel the Novus Ordo is not valid, or if you just don't care for it. But, I have full trust in the Holy Spirit, who allowed the Missa Normativa to come into existence.

You could cite all of the shenanigans that took place back then, and I've read Michael Davies book, "Liturgical Time Bombs" so I'm aware of some things that happened. However, it was not Vatican 2 which erred, but people who perverted it and exploited things to advance community-based worship.

I think if more people who have deep pain over what has happened to the Mass these last 40 years had access to an Assumption Grotto, it would ease that pain. I share my pictures in order to show people that there are parishes which celebrate, solemn, reverent, and reserved liturgies and hope that it gives them hope.

Granted, there are some who love the Tridentine, and I plan on assisting once or twice this summer at nearby St. Josephats to experience it. Thanks be to God for the Indult - people have that option here in Metro-Detroit. It is understandable that, for those who are inclined to follow the Tridentine, even the Mass at Grotto would not fill their desires. I have long believed that the Holy Spirit guides some people in that direction and by going, they act on that grace.

But, we must accept the validity of Vatican 2, and the Novus Ordo. The Holy Spirit cannot be duped. Therefore, to not accept it, is to not trust the Holy Spirit who allowed them to be written.

What we need to do now is to spend much time in prayer and adoration for reparation due to many abuses which take place today. Some are deliberate, but most are due to ignorance on the part of well-meaning people.


Diane said...


We must be persistent in pursuing authentic worship, whether one feels drawn to a nearby Indult, or a solemn Novus Ordo as you would witness in my parish - Assumption Grotto.

The Vespsers reading for tonite was as follows, and it applies:

1 Now we that are stronger, ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves. 2 Let every one of you please his neighbour unto good, to edification. 3 For Christ did not please himself, but as it is written: The reproaches of them that reproached thee, fell upon me. 4 For what things soever were written, were written for our learning: that through patience and the comfort of the scriptures, we might have hope. 5 Now the God of patience and of comfort grant you to be of one mind one towards another, according to Jesus Christ....

We who know that worship is something which must be God-centered to be authentic, must be patient with our brothers and sisters who have not yet received the grace of understanding in this regard. All we can do is to pray that more will receive God's grace and act on it. I believe this is happening as we speak, as is evidenced by the surge in traditional-order vocations and interest in traditional worship among the young.

It's going to be a slow process, requiring patience, but I have complete trust in the Holy Spirit that if we pray, rather than complain and condemn, we will help more souls to understand. It all won't happen in the timeframe we want, but in God's time.

Some who are using Latin may indeed be only part of the way. They may even still be mixed up in what belongs in the liturgy due to decades of "training" in all of the seminaries. But I credit any parish which takes even small steps in the direction of using Latin and bringing back devotions, reverence and a more traditional, reserved Mass. You can't criticize a first-grader for slopply handwriting, when they are just learning to write. And, so it will be with younger priests as they try to bring back a sense of the sacred. It will be a little sloppy in the beginning, but they will learn with time and with our support and prayers.

We need to set aside the anger, and put that energy into prayer.

I hope you'll stop by some time. You'll find a devotion-rich, reverent culture.

deum in secula laudemus said...

I think there's a bit of misunderstanding here. What user "Aristotle" is trying to convey is that the text in the Novus Ordo is lacking in some elements (versus the old rite). For example: the whole ascent to the altar bit by the priest has been deleted in the novus ordo (id est "I shall go to the altar of God...") Compare the texts and you might be able to see what he's trying to say.

However, what the Novus Ordo attempted to do in one respect, was that it tried to use some old cannons from early Christian writings to develop a new missal (as the rite from trent is by no means the only rite that has been used in the past!) This is why there are multiple eucharistic prayers (besides the Roman Cannon - Eucharistic Prayer I). The additional Eucharistic prayers are based in ancient prayer texts.

Still, there is a debate about which missal is better. A particular strength that the old rite has is that it is much more elaborate. However, the rite from Trent is missing the sign of peace -- something that was present in the very earliest rites, that comes from the biblical verse concerning leaving your gift at the altar and reconcling with your brother (however its current placement in the Novus Ordo might not be the best).

I would be hesitant to condemn one missal or another. Both of them have their weakensses and strengths. Obviously both of them ought to be primarily in Latin (as that cuts out any translation irregularities).


deum in secula laudemus said...

Oh yea...

I found a Diocesean church that regularly has a Latin Novus Ordo (although it is still versus populus, but Latin nontheless). I know it's a Diocesean Church, because it is the Cathedral.

On the Sunday Vigil (Sat 4PM Mass) they have a Latin Mass at the Cathedral of St. Mary of the Immaculate Conception in Peoria, IL (on a weekly basis).