Wednesday, February 29, 2012

Vaticanist offers "course correction" on possible Medjugorje judgments, after challenge



Vatican journalist, Andrea Tornielli, after getting caught using talking points from Medjugorje protagonists, did some backpedaling on what he wrote concerning possible judgments. As was reported earlier, the Commission's findings will conclude at the end of 2012 and be sent to Pope Benedict XVI for further judgment.

See the post by Louis Bélanger which leads to a another post he made earlier, challenging Tornielli.  He also links to the blog of a Franciscan in Italy who publicly challenged the Vaticanist, summing up his argument quite well.  You can get to all of those sources, including Andrea Tornielli's "course correction" from here: ► “Tornielli is wrong about Medjugorje” – Vaticanist agrees…

Still waiting on Tornielli to inform his readers of Bishop Peric's response to attacks against Bishop Zanic.

While I am glad that Tornielli has agreed with his critics about possible judgments, I am still deeply disappointed that he has allowed himself to be taken in by people that will go to great lengths to defend the "gospa" of Medjugorje, even unto suggesting Bishop Zanic, now deceased, was a tool of the communists.  What disappoints me even more, is that he repeats this in his recent writings, even after Bishop Peric wrote a strong defense of his predecessor in the face of these vicious attacks.    I don't know how Andrea Tornielli could withhold this information from his readers which is on the diocesan website in three langauges for about two months now.  Read it in one of these links: [English | Italian | Croatian].

Italian readers: Please ask Mr. Tornielli to share this information with his readers, at the Vatican Insider website.

Further reading on this:

YIKES!  Reactions of some Medjugorje supporters

In the meanwhile, we have something very revealing about some followers of Medjugorje being discussed in a Medjugorje forum thread, after they read Tornielli's latest report on possible judgments (the forum doesn't allow anyone with a critical view to participate.  


For those who have found or strengthened their faith through Medjugojre a negative ruling would create a troubling paradox. How does Our Lady's heart triumph if Medjugorje is damaged by the Catholic Church.

Here is another quote from the same thread by another person:

For anyone who has come to know the love of God through Our Lady and the gift of Holy Spirit at Medjugorje, any decision by the Church is irrelevant. It can only be relevant for those who are unsure.

And another:

For those who have seen the truth in that valley in Bosnia, Our Lady's Heart can not be damaged by an incorrect or misguided Vatican ruling.

The Holy Father has his work cut out for him.    If there is a condemnation of events, we may very well see a whole lot of arm-chair popes who discern for themselves, something that is reserved to the Church.  Consider the division seen in these statements.  You see, for them they see the Church being the cause of division, from the lady of Medjugorje.  The proper Catholic response, however, is to turn that around.  It is they who seem prepared to divide themselves from the Church, to follow the lady (and they are discussing it in the context of a possible negative judgment). 

Who causes division? Satan.  He divides us not from one another, but from the Church.  He is willing to tolerate conversions and devotion as long as he knows that people will become so attached to the phenomena that they cannot detach from it upon a condemnation.   There is an inability to distinguish between true devotion to Mary, which exists above and beyond any apparitions, and what seems to be a form of idol worship (if people persisted in following it, if condemned, and visionaries persisted with manifestations and messages). 

Adam and Eve were told not to eat of the forbidden fruit.  It didn't matter how appetizing it looked or how healthful it was, God said, "no".  Likewise, when the Church says, "no", we must yield to the Church.  In the case of a negative judgment, the greatest sacrifice a Medjugorje supporter could offer to God is not a fast on bread and water,  or hours of prayer, but a fiat - a "yes" - to Holy Mother Church.
 
One last point to make is that supporters often attribute their conversions to the apparitions, and not to the rich sacramental and devotional life they undertake.  All those conversions and vocations - they are real.  But God can draw straight with crooked lines.   What matters most is not how these people came to convert or pursue their vocation, but how they respond to the Holy Father when he pronounces his judgment.  It is either a response of pride, or humility.  Only one of those imitates Mary.

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10 comments:

Nick said...

I can understand the commentators' situation. I found myself in the same one. But God led to understand the primacy of His Word in my life.

There's an interesting conversation on obedience in the comments section of the video Medjugorje: Documents show how communist government repressed visionaries

Joaquin said...

Are the apparitions and revelations to the visionaries of Medjugorje still going on? And if they are, how would it be possible for the Holy See to approve these revelations? I had understood that the Holy See will not, in its prudence, approve revelations until they have ceased, lest some heresy or unorthodoxy be "revealed" in the future.

If all this is so, and if the Commission nevertheless proposes to pronounce upon this matter by the end of 2012 and send its recommendations to the Pope, is it not almost certain that the business at Medjugorje will be condemned? That would be the only judgment, it seems to me, that the Holy See could make at this time.

But perhaps the revelations have ceased. I am very ignorant on this matter, not having followed the business closely.

In fact I am unimpressed by Medjugorje (and other examples like Father Stephano Gobbi) because Mary in the gospels does not go on and on and on; she says what she has to say, usually very succinctly, and then she is silent. All this continuous talking for years and years strikes me as out of character.

I am well aware that even if the verdict of the Holy See is positive I will be under no obligation to believe in these apparitions. I think if approved they can be helpful to faith, but I prefer to dwell in the gospels.

Louis Bélanger said...

Thank you, Diane, for your nice expression: “course correction”… and for pointing out some reactions of Medjugorje supporters.

I would like to draw attention to the following “escalation phenomenon” typical to the “hard core” propagandists:

- First, they discard the local Bishop for his non constat (1986);

- Second, they rejoice at the creation of a larger national Commission mandated by the CDF (1987) and hope that its members will apparently “discard” the local Bishop with their “more objective view”;

- Third, they still rejoice that the local Bishop has been “dismissed from the dossier”, even if they must admit that 19 Bishops out of 20 members of the Yugoslavian Bishops’s Conference have voted for the non constat (1991), a fact that they conceal in the debates, so strong is their animosity --- fed by the Medjugorje Franciscans influencing the visionaries --- against the Ordinary of Mostar;

- Fourth, they are quite ecstatic when the dossier has peregrinated to Rome--- far away from the bad guy, the local Bishop --- being the object of a new investigation mandated by the Pope (2010).

- Fifth, they are now asking (at least some Medjugorje propagandists like Ministry Values – a denomination that sounds as paradoxical and weird as Democratic […] Republic of [North] Korea): “How does Our Lady's heart triumph if Medjugorje is damaged by the Catholic Church”? Apparently, their esteemed guide, Cardinal Christoph Schönborn, “offered some insight on this issue of apparitions and ecclesiastical authority.” As everyone should know, the Archbishop of Vienna is a great expert in the respect of local ecclesiastical authority he did not inform of his week-long stay in Medjugorje, as a “private pilgrim with mitre” in 2009-2010.

As you wrote, Diane, Tornielli “has agreed with his critics about possible judgments”, but there is still much work to do:  “It is up to us to seek to respond to the question of truth, fearlessly juxtaposing the proposal of faith with the reason of our time.

Louis

Nick said...

Joaquin,

"Are the apparitions and revelations to the visionaries of Medjugorje still going on? And if they are, how would it be possible for the Holy See to approve these revelations? I had understood that the Holy See will not, in its prudence, approve revelations until they have ceased, lest some heresy or unorthodoxy be "revealed" in the future."

The alleged revelations to Marcion and his followers, the Marcionists, were still ongoing when the Church condemned them. So the Church can condemn revelations when they are still ongoing. The Church has also condemned other revelations that are still ongoing today, such as Bayside and Holy Love Ministries. Also, here is what the Church teaches on revelation.

"If all this is so, and if the Commission nevertheless proposes to pronounce upon this matter by the end of 2012 and send its recommendations to the Pope, is it not almost certain that the business at Medjugorje will be condemned? That would be the only judgment, it seems to me, that the Holy See could make at this time."

Yes, it is almost certain that Medjugorje will be condemned if it is still ongoing.

"But perhaps the revelations have ceased. I am very ignorant on this matter, not having followed the business closely."

No, the messages are allegedly still ongoing.

"In fact I am unimpressed by Medjugorje (and other examples like Father Stephano Gobbi) because Mary in the gospels does not go on and on and on; she says what she has to say, usually very succinctly, and then she is silent. All this continuous talking for years and years strikes me as out of character."

Yes, Mary is very brief. Some theologians believe it is part of her personality. I believe that as well. But more to the point: God is the One Who speaks through Mary. He doesn't blabber on and on and on, He is always brief and to the point. Nor does God make private revelations a public or universal affair - like some falsely claim Fatima is. Only Divine Revelation is Public Revelation. He also doesn't use private revelations to fulfill Divine Revelation, since Jesus Christ is the Fulfillment of Divine Revelation.

"I am well aware that even if the verdict of the Holy See is positive I will be under no obligation to believe in these apparitions. I think if approved they can be helpful to faith, but I prefer to dwell in the gospels."

Yes, this is correct and the normal Christian spirit. Revelations and apparitions are a help to living according to Divine Revelation, but they are not an obligation. This means if any Christian claims he can disobey the Church in favor of obeying revelations, he is wrong and in danger of sinning against the Fourth Commandment, and if any Christian does disobey the Church in favor of obeying revelations, he has sinned against the Fourth Commandment.

Joaquin said...

Thank you, Nick, this is very helpful.

Anonymous said...

A couple of things - first, the Vatacanist did say that while the 3rd or neutral position is not in the 1978 document, it is acknowledged that it exists in the form of the cautionary words that can be used when saying the non constat. No matter.

Second, Padre Pio, when questioned about what the coming years would bring said, "Can't you see the world is catching on fire?"

And so I ask, "Can't you see the fire?"

Recently tow bioethicists had an article published in a bioethics journal advocating the killing of new borns, calling it after-birth abortion instead of infanticide, arguing that since abortion is legal, and the same arguments supporting abortion can be applied to new borns, then mothers should be allowed to kill them.

Maryland's Catholic governor signed into law same-sex marriage, following NY's Cuomo and 4 other Catholic governors in doing so.

In Britain, Catholic nurses lost their case yesterday arguing against being forced against their consciences to do work involving abortions.

And on and on.

Great danger, fire is engulfing the Church and the world.

And the attack on religious freedom and conscience in of all places, the US. The Senate refused to provide a conscience objection to the contraception mandate yesterday.

Blessed Mary always comes in the times of the greatest danger for the Church. The Church and the world are burning.

Think about it.

God bless you.

Joaquin said...

Anonymous, one may well agree that the Church and the world are burning, without necessarily being compelled to think that the alleged apparitions at Medjugorje are of God.

By that kind of reasoning all alleged apparitions and revelations in this troubled time (and there is no shortage of them!), however odd or unorthodox they might be, should be approved by the Church. (After all, everything is burning, so anything goes?) Fortunately for our collective sanity, the Holy See does not take that position, but seems to be maintaining its customary deliberate pace and its customary discretion in evaluating this matter.

We may well be in a panic, and perhaps there is good reason for it, but God does not panic, nor act without discretion.

Anonymous said...

God does not panic, of course, He sends His personal emissary, the Blessed Mother for times like these.

I did not say what I said to try to 'prove' the validity of Medjugorje. I have long ago moved past debate on the matter and through much prayer have become confident in it and am at peace. I will of course stand with the Church and its decision on the matter, which I believe will surprise the opponents. Already the signs are there, the stage has been set. Never in the 2000 year history of the Church has an apparition been studied at such a high level of the Church. Never has a large group of visionaries been summoned to Rome to give their personal testimonies. These are but preliminary signs of the uniqueness and importance of this apparition and of this time for mankind.

We will not be able to fix this current predicament of man, only God will do that, and in His infinite knowledge of all history, He is and has been working on the solution to these problems via His Mother for these thirty years - only now are we coming to the pinnacle of the problem, the apex of the reason we have been graced with an apparition such as this is only now becoming apparent as great apostasy now accelerates and crashes upon us. Paraphrasing God's response to Job, "Where were you when I made the world?" It isnot us, but only God Who will and is solving this problem.

The great falling away that must come before Jesus returns, spoken of by St. Paul, and referred to by the great padre Pio as the world on fire, is upon us. We have had the Hour of the Son, and we are now passing through the Hour of Satan, the short time that he is to be unchained spoken of in Revelation chapter 20.

During that hour of Satan, as foretold by the great St. Louis de Montfort, comes the Hour of Blessed Mary. We are in de Montfort's Age of Mary, and are with great speed moving towards the Hour of Blessed Mary, when her Immaculate Heart triumphs and her heel crushes Satan once and for all.

And that, my friend, is our present moment. That is what this most unique of all apparitions in the history of man is about.

"IN THE END, my Immaculate Heart will triumph." I believe, as I suspect the Holy Father believes since he prayed about it at Fatima on May 13, 2010, that before the hundredth anniversary of the Miracle of the Sun on October 13, 2017, we shall see the glorious Triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary. And that is ultimately what this final apparition is about - the purification and preparation for that great moment in Salvation History.

May God bless you.

Anonymous said...

I have been thrown out of Catholic groups simply for voicing prudence and caution regarding Medjugorje, a "let's see what the Vatican says" attitude.
I pray and worry about the myriads of people who are attached so strongly to this phenomena. This very well may be the event that makes the Church into a "smaller, holier Church" as I have serious doubts regarding obedience of the people who are devoted to it.
Our Lord waits in the Tabernacle for this kind of devotion... It is so sad.

Nick said...

NEWS UPDATE:

that while the examination is underway by the congregation for the doctrine of the faith into the Marian apparitions of Medjugorje, through an international commission of inquiry that met four times in 2011, the pontifical academy of the Immaculate, for which "the problem of the lack of academics is becoming even more acute," received many requests from prayer groups that "born from Medjugorje, have no point of reference in order to channel the grace of conversion obtained in that blessed place."